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« Update on Ives Family History Blog: September 2013 | Main | DNA signature of William Ives Now Available »

May 11, 2014

Comments

David J Ives

Congratulations to Richard for his excellent archival and on-site research that has cleared up a number of 'fuzzy' issues with William Ives. A number of "false trails" can now be eliminated. He has presented compelling evidence for William's ancestry to lie in Langham Parish and adjacent areas.

Mike Frisby

The email address for Langham Village History Group needs correcting in the above post, it should be LVHG@LanghaminRutland.org

Another person from a yeoman farmer Langham family "James Hubbard" was transported on the Mathew to St Christophers on the 21st May 1635. Two years later he made his way to Boston joining up with Lady Deborah Moody and her party which made its way to Nieu Amsterdam where he set up and surveyed what became "Gravesend".

We have assumed both he and Ives were Anabaptists and suffered religious persecution, they both came from well established families who were likely to have had financial stability. We can see from records that our local church was undergoing considerable upheaval. See EA Irons notes on our web site.

Kind Rgds

Mike Frisby
Web Master and archivist Langham Village History Group

Bill Ives

Mike - Thanks for the update and the correction. I will try to fix it and in the meanwhile your comment will show the right way. We were recently near the Gravesend area of Brooklyn where the English landed troops to fight George Washington in the first battle after the declaration of Independence. What more do you know about William Ives in England. I would be very interested. Bill

Dorothy Crooks

I know I am new to this conversation, but I have been researching William Ives, my 8-ggf, after a trip to New Haven last fall. I am very impressed by all of the research and thought presented by Bill Ives, Richard Ives and David Ives!

I went to the wonderful Langham Village History Group website and found the will of Thomas Ives, which references his eldest son William Ives. The argument seemed compelling enough that I entered parents and siblings for William in my primary database based on the will. But then I had second thoughts.
http://www.langhaminrutland.org.uk/wills&inventories/17thc-wills.pdf (page 109)

First, it does not seem plausible that William was being dispossessed and that the will was written to advise William of his prospects. Based on other research I have done and another comments posted on a different blog entry, I think William had already been provided for and hence the nominal sum in the will. As the eldest, he would already have 'launched'. When I looked at the bottom of the will, it appears that the will was probated about 2 months after it was written, so the will was written because Thomas' death was imminent. That does not mean that Thomas and Susan are not the parents of William, but does remove one possible reason for William choosing to emigrate. Second, even though 6 or 7 siblings of William are named, none of these names match the names of the 4 children eventually born to 'our' William. That is not conclusive, but seems very unusual to me. Third, I decided to go to Ancestry again to search for birth information for William Ives. I found an entry for Wm Ives, son of Richard Ives, baptized 14 May 1607, in Market Deeping, Lincoln, England, FHL Film# 421987. I am trying to find siblings for this William, but have not had much luck yet. I have not ordered the film, but I understand this to be a film of a primary source: [Item 2: Bishop's transcripts for Deeping-Market, 1562-1836. Author: Church of England. Parish Church of Deeping-Market (Lincolnshire)]

I started to research William Preston and his family, since he is listed immediately above William Ives on the passenger list. Furthermore, they both end up as early settlers of New Haven. This makes me wonder if they knew each other back in England... Plus, William and his wife Mary [Seabrook] are my 9-great-grandparents... So far, I have not found anything, but am not done exploring.

The 2 pieces of evidence I remember being presented for 'our' William being the William in Langham is his birthyear and the fact that his wife's second husband had lived about 9 miles from Langham. Are there other items to consider?

Thanks for letting me be part of the conversation.

Dorothy Crooks

Bill Ives

Dorothy - Thanks for your significant input. It is greatly appreciated.

Dorothy Crooks

To correct my earlier post, one of the brothers of William Ives of Langham was named John, and 'our' William Ives DID name a son John. But I would still expect more overlap on names. And John is a very common name.

Barry Wood

I am a little late finding this blog, but I have read the more recent posts with interest. I agree with Dorothy Crooks' comment to the effect that the will of Thomas Ives of Langham, Rutland did not actually dispossess his oldest son, William, but rather attempted to equalize his benefit from the estate with that of his siblings. Specifically, I think that William had received a gift of money from his father upon reaching his 21st birthday, and Thomas wanted to ensure that the younger sons would be entitled to the same upon reaching their majority. There seems to have been no residuary clause in the will. Therefore, in the absence of such the remaining personal estate of Thomas Ives, after payment of the legacies specified in the will and of any debts, would be distributed equally among the children, after deduction of the widow's third.

As noted on page 21 of the report, the actual text of the will is that the eldest "sonne," William, was to receive "Twelve pence" from the estate. It doesn't say, "twelve pence and no more," or "Twelve pence in full satisfaction of any claim he may make against my estate." Therefore, in my judgment William was still entitled to share in the ultimate distribution of the residue. Same with daughter Mary, the wife of Thomas Hacke. She had no doubt received her "marriage portion" at the time of her November 1628 marriage, and it was therefore necessary to give her only a nominal legacy of money in the will, whereas the younger, unmarried daughters were to receive ten pounds each upon obtaining their majority.

I realize that the "disinheriting" story makes better drama, but I suspect that the reality was more mundane than that.

Finally, as to the William Ives buried at Langham in 1639, I think that this could have been an uncle or great uncle of the New England immigrant. Even though life expectancy then wasn't what it is now, a great many burials in 17th century England relate to people who had attained (relatively) advanced age. FamilySearch reveals that there were more than a few men named William Ives (Eves, etc.) born in the period between 1560 and 1619, such that it would not have been deemed necessary to mention a parent if they had happened to die in Langham in 1639.

Further, you may have identified the origins of Thomas Ives of Langham. I am new to that issue, so I have no idea whether he might or might not have been the Thomas Ives chr. 10 June 1581 at Tuttingham, Norfolk, or not -- but the timing seems perfect, and Norfolk is not that far from Rutland. Notably, he was the son of a William Ives, such that it would have been appropriate for this Thomas, upon achieving fatherhood, to name his first son William after the grandfather.

Also, I find it suggestive that a William Ives - perhaps the same man - also had a son William christened at St. Martin at Palace, Norwich, 7 May 1567. If the babe of 1567 was an older brother of Thomas Ives of Langham, what would be more natural than that, in his old age, hearing that his brother had died leaving minor children in Langham, he would move there to assist with the upbringing of his nieces and nephews.

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